On the bitterly cold afternoon of January 14, I hitched a ride with the Aam Aadmi Party leader and former Delhi Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal. He was seated in the front, I at the back, as we negotiated the thick Delhi traffic on our way to the Ghonda assembly constituency. I shot questions at him, struggling to hold his attention as he took time out to tweet from his mobile phone.
The interview ended as we entered the labyrinthine Ghonda settlement, turning right and left in such quick succession that I knew I wouldn’t be able to find my way out of the area on my own. We came to a halt behind a makeshift rostrum. In the lane separating two rows of houses that leaned towards each other, hundreds of people were huddled. “Bharat Mata ki jai,” Kejriwal thundered, and the crowd chanted the slogan after him.
He cut to the chase. He spoke of the prohibitive cost of medicines required by cancer, diabetic and cancer patients. Who do you think is gaining? Kejriwal asked. The pharmaceutical companies, he informed them, quickly, and rather breathlessly, switched to talking about the nexus between the power companies and the Bharatiya Janata Party. Since he had already spoken to me on this issue, I left to transcribe the interview.
Here are some excerpts.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi called you anarchist recently. What image does he evoke in you?
I don’t want to get into that. He called me names, abused me, accused me of being bhagora [deserter] and anarchist. He said I should go to jungle, become a Naxalite. I have never abused anyone. We want to talk of issues. This is an election for Delhi. Talk about the issues pertaining to Delhi, what concerns the people. There are issues of price rise, safety of women, corruption, the problems children encounter in admission to schools, the state of government educational institutes and hospitals. Modi doesn’t talk about these issues. He believes in personalised attacks. We don’t do that kind of politics.
You were recently quoted saying, “The BJP has forgotten all promises made during the general elections. It has made so many U-turns.” Do you have examples to prove your charge?
He [Modi] said he would reduce the electricity bill by 30%, but he increased it by 15%. He said he would reduce corruption, but the rate of bribery in Delhi has doubled. He said he would give pucca houses to those who live in jhuggi-jhopris. In fact, the opposite has been happening – they have been demolishing jhuggi-jhopris in every part of Delhi. He said he would get back to India the black money stashed abroad and every person would get Rs 15 lakh. He hasn’t done that. He said he would disclose the 624 names of those who have money in Swiss banks, but he hasn’t yet done that.
He said he would ensure safety for women. Instead, the entire BJP has made the life of women hell, they have got after them. They say they won’t allow girls to wear jeans, that women should give birth to four children, that they won’t allow them to use the mobile phone, that they won’t allow them to work, that girls shouldn’t study.
On just about every issue, the BJP has done a U-turn.
The Delhi assembly election seems like Round Two of the battle that began in Varanasi, between you and Modi. Why do you think he has chosen to pit himself directly against you? Why hasn’t the BJP announced the name of its chief ministerial candidate?
They don’t have a candidate capable of becoming chief minister. As it happened in Maharashtra and Haryana earlier, the BJP wants a puppet chief minister, someone who will dance to the tune of Modi. For instance, the people of Haryana are already deeply disappointed with [Haryana Chief Minister Manohar Lal] Khattar sahib. They say he doesn’t take any decisions on his own, but waits for direction from the top. Modi talks of federalism, but he goes against the very spirit of federalism. So the question before the people of Delhi is, do they want a puppet chief minister? Or do they want a strong chief minister? Obviously, the people of Delhi want a strong chief minister.
The battle for Varanasi was so much about you taking on Modi for representing the corporate interests and big business. What’s the big theme of the battle for Delhi?
While there are issues which are peculiar to Delhi, there are some that are a replay of the theme of the last general election. For instance, only today [January 14] , AAP has disclosed the nexus between power companies and the BJP. Its Delhi president, Satish Upadhyay, and general secretary Ashish Sood have companies that install and replace electricity meters for Delhi’s power companies. These are the same meters which people have been saying give high and faulty readings because they run faster. This is why the BJP is not willing to stop corrupt practices the power companies indulge in. This is why the BJP isn’t interested in getting the books of these power companies audited.
So, yes, Modi and his party still represent the corporate interests.
It was for the first time after the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992 that Delhi witnessed communal riots and tension at the end of last year. Have you and your party been able to figure the causes of it and who were responsible for it?
Over the last two to three months, in preparation for the elections, the BJP has been trying to whip up communal tension in Delhi. They want to polarise society and appeal to certain votebanks. Unfortunately for them and fortunately for the people, they haven’t succeeded. It has spread all around the city that the BJP is trying to trigger communal tension. It is a good thing they could not succeed.
By contrast, our volunteers worked round the clock to ensure riots don’t take place. In Trilokpuri, Bawana, Nangloi, Nand Nagiri, it is because of our volunteers either the riots didn’t spread or the communal tension, deliberately fanned, didn’t flare up. The BJP’s design is to divide the poor.
And they are overwhelmingly your voters?
Yes, that is why the BJP has been fanning the communal tension, in the hope of polarising them along communal lines.
What do you think of the gharwapsi programme and love jihad?
Before the elections, the BJP was muttering vikas, vikas [development, development] all the time. After the elections, they are insisting on religious conversion. They say gharwapsi karenge, love jihad karenge. They say, we will now allow girls to wear jeans. My suggestion to them is that disclose your agenda upfront before the elections. Because when they change the agenda after the elections, people get shocked. However, people have understood their gameplan, their agenda. They no longer believe in their rhetoric of development.
I saw your tweet endorsing the film PK. What did you find so appealing about it?
The film raises the issue of blind faith and such tendencies in every religious community. The film’s director has portrayed it sensitively. Basically, religion is a personal thing and it should be about spirituality. These days, though, we have not only become victim to blind faith, but also tend to flaunt our religious beliefs. The film’s director has questioned all such tendencies.
The film, to me, also says that whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Sikh, all of us are human beings. But we are exploited by a few for the purpose of enriching themselves or achieving political goals.
Many Dalit intellectuals think Swachh Bharat Abhiyan mocks them. How…
They are right in thinking that. This campaign began from Dalit colonies at most places, as it was in Delhi too. So you ended up linking uncleanliness with Dalits, you ended up invoking the age-old stereotypes. The campaign, therefore, has become a slur on them.
So how would you go about cleaning Delhi?
Our emphasis is different. AAP believes you have to improve the working conditions of municipality employees, you have to provide them better wages and security of service, you have to end corruption in the Municipal Corporation of Delhi. These are some of the measures you must take to clean Delhi. You can’t make it, or India, swachh just by raising the broom and getting your photo clicked.
In what way has your experience of electoral politics over the last one and a half years, particularly the general election, changed your perception of politics?
We in the middle class are wrong in believing that elections can’t be fought on a small budget or unless you spend lavishly. Elections can be fought on a small kitty; elections can be won by spending a small sum of money. Again, we feel good people can’t contest and win elections. I think good people can fight and win. However, what is necessary is that you have to be rooted among the people and do aggressive politics, fight aggressively for them. They should feel you are their person. They will then support you. You need lots and lots of money when you cut yourself of from people and live in a bubble till the next election.
But, surely, the money spent lavishly by rival parties puts AAP at a disadvantage?
It sure is a disadvantage. But you can overcome this by working among the people. The long and short of it is to work hard among the people, with them.
Last year, AAP wasn’t so visible in Delhi. But now one sees the party’s billboards all over the city. Is this a change in AAP’s style of politics?
No, there is no change in style. Unlike the last time, we decided to rent a few billboards, which, we realised, can be rented cheaply. We haven’t incurred much expenditure on renting them.
But your rivals, particularly the BJP, say AAP is getting money from abroad.
From whom and where we get our money, the name of every donor, is listed on our website. Why doesn’t the BJP disclose from where its money comes from, who its donors are? Nor do the media ever ask the BJP to disclose it source of funding.
It is said AAP has fielded 10 'career politicians' this time round. Some critics of the party feel it is a deviation from the norm the party subscribed to in 2013, and that you need these candidates to manage the electoral machinery in some constituencies.
We fielded career politicians last time as well. What’s wrong with that? We investigate the past of each and every candidate. There shouldn’t be a criminal case pending against the candidate, he or she shouldn’t…Let me put it this way, we have three benchmarks, what we consider are strictly non-negotiable – crime, corruption, character. So if the candidate in our investigation ticks the three boxes, then I see no issue in fielding him or her.
Sheela Dikshit recently said that she doesn’t rule out the Congress supporting AAP, in case there is a hung assembly. What do you make of her comment?
We welcome her remark, for she has conceded defeat. She has accepted that the Congress is not in a position to form government. Obviously, why would people vote for a party which itself believes it isn’t winning. We are telling people that voting for the Congress is akin to wasting their votes. We are telling them that since the Congress is saying it is going to support AAP, then they might as well vote for us.
What precisely is the AAP’s educational loan scheme which seems to have created a buzz?
Basically, there are people who don’t have the money to educate their children. When they go to the bank, they are asked to provide a guarantee. Now, the government will provide guarantee. So the child’s education will be funded and once he becomes employed, he will repay the loan. In case the child isn’t able to repay, then the government will remit the amount he or she owes to the bank.
But won’t this encourage default?
It is not that the recovery process will stop. The government will continue to recover money from the child. It is just that the bank will get the money due to it. This scheme will be available to children after they pass Class XII. We have also promised to not only greatly improve government schools but also make education free till Class XII.
The ideological churning in the AAP seems to continue. Some members want the party to go leftward, others rightward. So what is then the AAP’s ideological leaning?
We are neither right nor left. We are in the centre. It all depends on the issues before us, the solutions we can search for. Wherever we find the solution, right or left, we will seek it.
AAP’s support among the lower classes seems to have consolidated. But the middle class is still fickle in its support to you?
The middle class, initially, was taken in by the BJP’s plank of development. But even the middle-class person is wondering at what is happening. He or she thinks the BJP had promised development, but it is now talking of love jihad and gharwapsi, and wants women to bear four-four children. The middle class hates all this. This is why the middle class is getting increasingly disenchanted with the BJP and is now returning to AAP.
Do you feel the media is less hostile to AAP now, than what it was, say, during the general elections?
There are sections in the media which is independent. But there are other sections in the media which you can call the Modi media. The Modi media gets its direction from the top, what Modiji tells them to do. The independent media is independent in the true sense of the word – it praises us when we do good work, it criticises us when we bungle.
Don’t you think the BJP will exploit the forthcoming visit of Obama for the purpose of elections? The media will have blanket coverage of his visit – he will be here on January 25 and Delhi goes to the polls on February 7.
Yes, they will do their best to milk Obama’s visit to their advantage. But I don’t think his visit will have an impact on the elections in Delhi.
What has been the impact of your programme, Delhi Dialogue?
The Delhi Dialogue has had a great impact. It has taken the politics of issues to the people. It has also brought out the contrast between AAP and the BJP. They say they will do religious conversion, we say we will open 20 new colleges. They say they will not allow girls to wear jeans, we say we will provide security to Delhi’s women. They say they will not allow girls to use the mobile, we say we will have CCTV cameras all around Delhi, so that women feel safe.
Ajaz Ashraf is a journalist from Delhi. His novel, The Hour Before Dawn, published by HarperCollins, is available in bookstores.
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The interview ended as we entered the labyrinthine Ghonda settlement, turning right and left in such quick succession that I knew I wouldn’t be able to find my way out of the area on my own. We came to a halt behind a makeshift rostrum. In the lane separating two rows of houses that leaned towards each other, hundreds of people were huddled. “Bharat Mata ki jai,” Kejriwal thundered, and the crowd chanted the slogan after him.
He cut to the chase. He spoke of the prohibitive cost of medicines required by cancer, diabetic and cancer patients. Who do you think is gaining? Kejriwal asked. The pharmaceutical companies, he informed them, quickly, and rather breathlessly, switched to talking about the nexus between the power companies and the Bharatiya Janata Party. Since he had already spoken to me on this issue, I left to transcribe the interview.
Here are some excerpts.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi called you anarchist recently. What image does he evoke in you?
I don’t want to get into that. He called me names, abused me, accused me of being bhagora [deserter] and anarchist. He said I should go to jungle, become a Naxalite. I have never abused anyone. We want to talk of issues. This is an election for Delhi. Talk about the issues pertaining to Delhi, what concerns the people. There are issues of price rise, safety of women, corruption, the problems children encounter in admission to schools, the state of government educational institutes and hospitals. Modi doesn’t talk about these issues. He believes in personalised attacks. We don’t do that kind of politics.
You were recently quoted saying, “The BJP has forgotten all promises made during the general elections. It has made so many U-turns.” Do you have examples to prove your charge?
He [Modi] said he would reduce the electricity bill by 30%, but he increased it by 15%. He said he would reduce corruption, but the rate of bribery in Delhi has doubled. He said he would give pucca houses to those who live in jhuggi-jhopris. In fact, the opposite has been happening – they have been demolishing jhuggi-jhopris in every part of Delhi. He said he would get back to India the black money stashed abroad and every person would get Rs 15 lakh. He hasn’t done that. He said he would disclose the 624 names of those who have money in Swiss banks, but he hasn’t yet done that.
He said he would ensure safety for women. Instead, the entire BJP has made the life of women hell, they have got after them. They say they won’t allow girls to wear jeans, that women should give birth to four children, that they won’t allow them to use the mobile phone, that they won’t allow them to work, that girls shouldn’t study.
On just about every issue, the BJP has done a U-turn.
The Delhi assembly election seems like Round Two of the battle that began in Varanasi, between you and Modi. Why do you think he has chosen to pit himself directly against you? Why hasn’t the BJP announced the name of its chief ministerial candidate?
They don’t have a candidate capable of becoming chief minister. As it happened in Maharashtra and Haryana earlier, the BJP wants a puppet chief minister, someone who will dance to the tune of Modi. For instance, the people of Haryana are already deeply disappointed with [Haryana Chief Minister Manohar Lal] Khattar sahib. They say he doesn’t take any decisions on his own, but waits for direction from the top. Modi talks of federalism, but he goes against the very spirit of federalism. So the question before the people of Delhi is, do they want a puppet chief minister? Or do they want a strong chief minister? Obviously, the people of Delhi want a strong chief minister.
The battle for Varanasi was so much about you taking on Modi for representing the corporate interests and big business. What’s the big theme of the battle for Delhi?
While there are issues which are peculiar to Delhi, there are some that are a replay of the theme of the last general election. For instance, only today [January 14] , AAP has disclosed the nexus between power companies and the BJP. Its Delhi president, Satish Upadhyay, and general secretary Ashish Sood have companies that install and replace electricity meters for Delhi’s power companies. These are the same meters which people have been saying give high and faulty readings because they run faster. This is why the BJP is not willing to stop corrupt practices the power companies indulge in. This is why the BJP isn’t interested in getting the books of these power companies audited.
So, yes, Modi and his party still represent the corporate interests.
It was for the first time after the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992 that Delhi witnessed communal riots and tension at the end of last year. Have you and your party been able to figure the causes of it and who were responsible for it?
Over the last two to three months, in preparation for the elections, the BJP has been trying to whip up communal tension in Delhi. They want to polarise society and appeal to certain votebanks. Unfortunately for them and fortunately for the people, they haven’t succeeded. It has spread all around the city that the BJP is trying to trigger communal tension. It is a good thing they could not succeed.
By contrast, our volunteers worked round the clock to ensure riots don’t take place. In Trilokpuri, Bawana, Nangloi, Nand Nagiri, it is because of our volunteers either the riots didn’t spread or the communal tension, deliberately fanned, didn’t flare up. The BJP’s design is to divide the poor.
And they are overwhelmingly your voters?
Yes, that is why the BJP has been fanning the communal tension, in the hope of polarising them along communal lines.
What do you think of the gharwapsi programme and love jihad?
Before the elections, the BJP was muttering vikas, vikas [development, development] all the time. After the elections, they are insisting on religious conversion. They say gharwapsi karenge, love jihad karenge. They say, we will now allow girls to wear jeans. My suggestion to them is that disclose your agenda upfront before the elections. Because when they change the agenda after the elections, people get shocked. However, people have understood their gameplan, their agenda. They no longer believe in their rhetoric of development.
I saw your tweet endorsing the film PK. What did you find so appealing about it?
The film raises the issue of blind faith and such tendencies in every religious community. The film’s director has portrayed it sensitively. Basically, religion is a personal thing and it should be about spirituality. These days, though, we have not only become victim to blind faith, but also tend to flaunt our religious beliefs. The film’s director has questioned all such tendencies.
The film, to me, also says that whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Sikh, all of us are human beings. But we are exploited by a few for the purpose of enriching themselves or achieving political goals.
Many Dalit intellectuals think Swachh Bharat Abhiyan mocks them. How…
They are right in thinking that. This campaign began from Dalit colonies at most places, as it was in Delhi too. So you ended up linking uncleanliness with Dalits, you ended up invoking the age-old stereotypes. The campaign, therefore, has become a slur on them.
So how would you go about cleaning Delhi?
Our emphasis is different. AAP believes you have to improve the working conditions of municipality employees, you have to provide them better wages and security of service, you have to end corruption in the Municipal Corporation of Delhi. These are some of the measures you must take to clean Delhi. You can’t make it, or India, swachh just by raising the broom and getting your photo clicked.
In what way has your experience of electoral politics over the last one and a half years, particularly the general election, changed your perception of politics?
We in the middle class are wrong in believing that elections can’t be fought on a small budget or unless you spend lavishly. Elections can be fought on a small kitty; elections can be won by spending a small sum of money. Again, we feel good people can’t contest and win elections. I think good people can fight and win. However, what is necessary is that you have to be rooted among the people and do aggressive politics, fight aggressively for them. They should feel you are their person. They will then support you. You need lots and lots of money when you cut yourself of from people and live in a bubble till the next election.
But, surely, the money spent lavishly by rival parties puts AAP at a disadvantage?
It sure is a disadvantage. But you can overcome this by working among the people. The long and short of it is to work hard among the people, with them.
Last year, AAP wasn’t so visible in Delhi. But now one sees the party’s billboards all over the city. Is this a change in AAP’s style of politics?
No, there is no change in style. Unlike the last time, we decided to rent a few billboards, which, we realised, can be rented cheaply. We haven’t incurred much expenditure on renting them.
But your rivals, particularly the BJP, say AAP is getting money from abroad.
From whom and where we get our money, the name of every donor, is listed on our website. Why doesn’t the BJP disclose from where its money comes from, who its donors are? Nor do the media ever ask the BJP to disclose it source of funding.
It is said AAP has fielded 10 'career politicians' this time round. Some critics of the party feel it is a deviation from the norm the party subscribed to in 2013, and that you need these candidates to manage the electoral machinery in some constituencies.
We fielded career politicians last time as well. What’s wrong with that? We investigate the past of each and every candidate. There shouldn’t be a criminal case pending against the candidate, he or she shouldn’t…Let me put it this way, we have three benchmarks, what we consider are strictly non-negotiable – crime, corruption, character. So if the candidate in our investigation ticks the three boxes, then I see no issue in fielding him or her.
Sheela Dikshit recently said that she doesn’t rule out the Congress supporting AAP, in case there is a hung assembly. What do you make of her comment?
We welcome her remark, for she has conceded defeat. She has accepted that the Congress is not in a position to form government. Obviously, why would people vote for a party which itself believes it isn’t winning. We are telling people that voting for the Congress is akin to wasting their votes. We are telling them that since the Congress is saying it is going to support AAP, then they might as well vote for us.
What precisely is the AAP’s educational loan scheme which seems to have created a buzz?
Basically, there are people who don’t have the money to educate their children. When they go to the bank, they are asked to provide a guarantee. Now, the government will provide guarantee. So the child’s education will be funded and once he becomes employed, he will repay the loan. In case the child isn’t able to repay, then the government will remit the amount he or she owes to the bank.
But won’t this encourage default?
It is not that the recovery process will stop. The government will continue to recover money from the child. It is just that the bank will get the money due to it. This scheme will be available to children after they pass Class XII. We have also promised to not only greatly improve government schools but also make education free till Class XII.
The ideological churning in the AAP seems to continue. Some members want the party to go leftward, others rightward. So what is then the AAP’s ideological leaning?
We are neither right nor left. We are in the centre. It all depends on the issues before us, the solutions we can search for. Wherever we find the solution, right or left, we will seek it.
AAP’s support among the lower classes seems to have consolidated. But the middle class is still fickle in its support to you?
The middle class, initially, was taken in by the BJP’s plank of development. But even the middle-class person is wondering at what is happening. He or she thinks the BJP had promised development, but it is now talking of love jihad and gharwapsi, and wants women to bear four-four children. The middle class hates all this. This is why the middle class is getting increasingly disenchanted with the BJP and is now returning to AAP.
Do you feel the media is less hostile to AAP now, than what it was, say, during the general elections?
There are sections in the media which is independent. But there are other sections in the media which you can call the Modi media. The Modi media gets its direction from the top, what Modiji tells them to do. The independent media is independent in the true sense of the word – it praises us when we do good work, it criticises us when we bungle.
Don’t you think the BJP will exploit the forthcoming visit of Obama for the purpose of elections? The media will have blanket coverage of his visit – he will be here on January 25 and Delhi goes to the polls on February 7.
Yes, they will do their best to milk Obama’s visit to their advantage. But I don’t think his visit will have an impact on the elections in Delhi.
What has been the impact of your programme, Delhi Dialogue?
The Delhi Dialogue has had a great impact. It has taken the politics of issues to the people. It has also brought out the contrast between AAP and the BJP. They say they will do religious conversion, we say we will open 20 new colleges. They say they will not allow girls to wear jeans, we say we will provide security to Delhi’s women. They say they will not allow girls to use the mobile, we say we will have CCTV cameras all around Delhi, so that women feel safe.
Ajaz Ashraf is a journalist from Delhi. His novel, The Hour Before Dawn, published by HarperCollins, is available in bookstores.