Drawing upon two decades of activism in Rajasthan, Aruna Roy played a key role in getting the United Progressive Alliance government to pass two path-breaking legislations – the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act and the Right to Information Act. Arvind Kejriwal, the current chief minister of Delhi, worked with her closely on RTI, until their differences came to fore at the time of the Anna movement. In an interview over email, Roy critically analyses both the defeat of the Bharatiya Janata Party and the victory of the Aam Aadmi Party in Delhi, as well as the road ahead.
What do you think made people in Delhi reject the Bharatiya Janata Party so decisively less than one year after the party came to power at the centre?
In the Lok Sabha elections, the BJP obtained a majority in 60 of the 70 assembly segments in Delhi. The swing in just eight months has to be understood as a rejection of many things that are coming to symbolise BJP rule. Some of the reasons for rejecting the Congress seem to apply to the BJP as well, with some new areas of concern. The government is seen as getting even closer to the corporate sector. This is multiplied by a blatant disregard for poor people and their concerns, and a dismissive attitude to the rights-based paradigm. Minority communities are feeling extremely vulnerable, while Hindutva leaders have a free hand. There is disproportionate time spent on building the personality cult of the prime minister, reinforced by a cultivated image of elite authority and power. A majority of ordinary Indians feel their issues are overlooked, and unmet expectations are now turning the “acche din” slogan into a real liability.
But it is not just symbolism. The BJP has unabashedly and openly pursued a pro-corporate, pro-market agenda riding rough shod over the needs of life and livelihood of marginalised people. The concerted attack on the environment and activists who speak against it is alarming. Social sector programmes have been marginalised, budgets have been cut. Ordinances have become a tool to overrule parliamentary debate on contentious issues. Land and natural resources, whose ownership by people is seen as synonymous with independence, are being gifted to corporate bodies. Bigoted and fundamentalist leaders have been allowed to make disruptive statements, disturbing very finely balanced social relationships.
In some ways the BJP seems to be returning to its past. The projection of “development” is like an exaggerated version of the India Shining campaign, and the vision of society points to a revival of political intimidation against minorities which accompanied the Ayodhya demolition movement of 1990-91. Even the issues of transparency and accountability, which the BJP continually raised as a leading opposition party, have been ignored and deliberately allowed to stagnate, since they have come to power. While the BJP seemed to have been confident of its priorities, the voter in Delhi has emphatically rejected what the BJP has offered in its last eight months.
Does the verdict in Delhi show the limits of power in India?
It would be too simplistic to say that. The Delhi results are significant. Nevertheless, this is just one out of many elections which repeatedly take place in this vast country. India has rejected arrogant power many times electorally. Those of us who operate in the non-electoral political space, have seen abuse and misuse of power and arbitrary action by those in power – whether appointed or elected. There are many parts of India where state power is unchecked and lack of democratic space has led to perpetual conflict zones where ordinary citizens are at the mercy of those in power.
Elections themselves are an important means by which people can check parties and leaders who have begun to display the arrogance of power. However, it is the daily empowerment of ordinary citizens that needs to be enhanced. The Aam Aadmi Party has come in with a mandate to significantly increase transparency, accountability and citizens’ participation in governance. It has promised to seek answers from the people and foster real “Swaraj” by allowing the people to become a part of the planning, implementation and the monitoring process of governance. It will have to keep this promise.
The huge mandate has an implicit warning that expectations are high. The swing in mandate is also a warning to political parties that people know the power of their vote. Power is always limited, or should be, in a democracy. If there are no limits to power, democracy cannot exist.
Some see the verdict as the rejection of the personality cult being built around the prime minister. But doesn't the same danger hold for the newly elected chief minister of Delhi, Arvind Kejriwal?
It is true that “Abki baar Modi sarkar” and “Panch saal Kejriwal“ sound too much like the same ringtone. For an alternative party, with an “aam aadmi and aurat" approach, we hoped that there would have been greater emphasis on collective leadership. We expected many more pictures of other leaders on the AAP posters and banners as well. There should have been much bigger face recognition given to the many young volunteers and party workers in AAP. If the AAP quite rightly recognises personality cults and arrogance as a critical reason for the downfall of both the Congress and the BJP, it must change its current image. The image of a person-oriented party must be prevented through internal democracy and projection of collective leadership.The overwhelming mandate can make it even more susceptible to centralising and concentrating power both in the party and the government. The rhetoric, the imagery, and reality must come together in a real effort to dismantle concentrations of power, and allow ordinary people to hold power to account.
You have worked with Kejriwal in the past. But you disagreed with him at the time of the Anna movement. What do you think of him and his politics now?
Our disagreement was with the process and the nature of the solution. We had begun discussion within the National Campaign for People's Right to Information on an independent anti-corruption agency. Kejriwal was part of that group. The critical difference lay in the perception of power. The NCPRI was of the opinion that the law should empower the citizen, while dismantling the existing concentrations of power within the hierarchy of governance. Corruption was seen as a result of the arbitrary exercise of power. The creation of an all-powerful and unaccountable investigating agency could easily get corrupted. We have learned from the RTI movement that empowering ordinary citizens to demand answers from the highest authorities and hold them to account does bring about transformative change.
The new government in Delhi has come in with great expectations. It will have to try very hard to fulfil the promises it has made and institutionalise them. It will have to allow and encourage ordinary people to play the role of a constructive opposition. It will have to evolve and share its structure of functioning, show by precept and example that it works democratically within, and outside its party framework.
The AAP has taken some refreshing and important steps. It has put all financial donations on the website. It has involved young people and volunteers in significant numbers. It has attempted to break traditional vote banks of caste and community and used Delhi’s cosmopolitan nature to forge a new constituency. It has identified with the ordinary person and given India’s perpetual underdog a sense of hope and excitement.
However, the real political change will have to take place now, when the AAP is in power and shaping what it has promised – a truly participatory government. The AAP must use the significant talent it has attracted and the even more experienced pool of expertise and commitments in social sector, movements and organizations, if it has to multiply the advantage of political majorities by the wisdom of grassroots realities.
What is your view of the Aam Aadmi Party? What do you identify as its strengths and weaknesses?
The AAP is far too young to be easily classified and understood. It seems to have a mix of many streams, carefully attempting to stay clear of strong ideological positions and statements. However, politics is about competing ideologies. What seems like a strength in order to gain access to different sets of voters can also become a weakness in taking decisive steps in government. It is a welcome sign that it has treated its tremendous margin of victory with caution. The party has young people who have not yet been overtaken by the cynicism of electoral politics. However, the most difficult challenges lie ahead.
How will it grow as a party as it spreads in other states? The Lok Sabha elections seem to be a fairly dramatic failure, as it found itself overwhelmed by all kinds of elements taking control of the party. How will it deal with transparency and accountability of all its elected representatives and cadres across Delhi who will be its real face to the ordinary citizen?
How will it fulfil its many promises of water, electricity, health and education amongst others, while raising the resources needed to fulfill these promises? Finally, will it be able to make bold and significant moves to truly make government transparent and accountable to the people. Will it be a real bottom up government?
What are the real challenges that the Modi government needs to address in India and the Kejriwal government in Delhi?
Vulnerable people and communities in India are facing very testing times. One portion of India’s population has become extremely affluent, while huge numbers of poor people still struggle to get the most basic necessities. We now don’t even have the rhetoric of inclusive growth. The only mantra is “growth”, with no concern for its cause or distribution. The decision to leave the development of the poorest and most marginalized people to the market and the expected trickle-down is actually feeding a time bomb.
The recently promulgated ordinances on environment and natural resources will only further anger and alienate people who are already fighting with their backs to the wall. India cannot be driven by either a Northern or a Chinese model of growth. It has to evolve a development paradigm best suited to its geopolitical, socio-economic climate. It has to build an organic, homegrown, collectively decided, model of development that does not put extraordinary pressure on people and the environment that the central government is currently pursuing.
We are going through drastic budget cuts on social sector expenditures, and one hears that more cuts are likely in social sector spending in the next budget. The union government will be mistaken to assume that it got a mandate to do away with people’s rights and to carry on labelling essential social sector entitlements as doles.
Economic questions are difficult enough because of competing priorities. In addition, to allow social strife to build up as a possible diversion, allowing completely unjustified statements to be made by so called politico-religious leaders is a sign of manipulative politics taking root.
The Prime Minister, and the ruling alliance needs to step back and pay attention to real needs of ordinary people. Opening bank accounts is a potentially laudable step – provided that there is money in those accounts. The only new rural development initiative – the Sansad Adarsh Gram Yojana is too marginal to have anything beyond a symbolic effect.
The new Chief Minister of Delhi and his party should realise that he has been solidly supported by the poorer and more marginalised people of Delhi. If he can address the basic needs of the poor of Delhi, he can give wind to the hopes of millions of other people across the country.
Most importantly, the PM and CM must realise that the democratic framework that catapulted them to power can be used to make sure that their programmes and policies are indeed tailored to the needs of India. Principles of transparency, accountability and participation need to be applied. These are not just rhetorical terms, but the medium through which the energies of the people of India can be used for collective change.
What is the way forward for people's movements in the current political environment of the country? Has the space for social activism shrunk in the past one year?
The space for social activism may have been undermined because of the witch hunt of dissenters by the Home Ministry and other agencies of state. However, the need for social activism is even greater at a time when mainstream political parties seem to be turning away from social sector issues. People’s movements are actually stronger than ever before, and behind AAP‘s victory is the contribution of not just the anti-corruption movements, but also the years of committed work and hard earned credibility in the social sector.
People's movements have now reached a phase of maturity where they have carefully worked out the details of all aspects of each issue they take up. They are engaging with the state, the market, and with many powerful adversaries in society. They have now begun to engage with electoral political process. While some social activists make a transition into electoral politics, others must continue to deepen the space of the non-party political process. The dialectic between the two will make for a much healthier and more vibrant democracy, with real meaning for the people.
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What do you think made people in Delhi reject the Bharatiya Janata Party so decisively less than one year after the party came to power at the centre?
In the Lok Sabha elections, the BJP obtained a majority in 60 of the 70 assembly segments in Delhi. The swing in just eight months has to be understood as a rejection of many things that are coming to symbolise BJP rule. Some of the reasons for rejecting the Congress seem to apply to the BJP as well, with some new areas of concern. The government is seen as getting even closer to the corporate sector. This is multiplied by a blatant disregard for poor people and their concerns, and a dismissive attitude to the rights-based paradigm. Minority communities are feeling extremely vulnerable, while Hindutva leaders have a free hand. There is disproportionate time spent on building the personality cult of the prime minister, reinforced by a cultivated image of elite authority and power. A majority of ordinary Indians feel their issues are overlooked, and unmet expectations are now turning the “acche din” slogan into a real liability.
But it is not just symbolism. The BJP has unabashedly and openly pursued a pro-corporate, pro-market agenda riding rough shod over the needs of life and livelihood of marginalised people. The concerted attack on the environment and activists who speak against it is alarming. Social sector programmes have been marginalised, budgets have been cut. Ordinances have become a tool to overrule parliamentary debate on contentious issues. Land and natural resources, whose ownership by people is seen as synonymous with independence, are being gifted to corporate bodies. Bigoted and fundamentalist leaders have been allowed to make disruptive statements, disturbing very finely balanced social relationships.
In some ways the BJP seems to be returning to its past. The projection of “development” is like an exaggerated version of the India Shining campaign, and the vision of society points to a revival of political intimidation against minorities which accompanied the Ayodhya demolition movement of 1990-91. Even the issues of transparency and accountability, which the BJP continually raised as a leading opposition party, have been ignored and deliberately allowed to stagnate, since they have come to power. While the BJP seemed to have been confident of its priorities, the voter in Delhi has emphatically rejected what the BJP has offered in its last eight months.
Does the verdict in Delhi show the limits of power in India?
It would be too simplistic to say that. The Delhi results are significant. Nevertheless, this is just one out of many elections which repeatedly take place in this vast country. India has rejected arrogant power many times electorally. Those of us who operate in the non-electoral political space, have seen abuse and misuse of power and arbitrary action by those in power – whether appointed or elected. There are many parts of India where state power is unchecked and lack of democratic space has led to perpetual conflict zones where ordinary citizens are at the mercy of those in power.
Elections themselves are an important means by which people can check parties and leaders who have begun to display the arrogance of power. However, it is the daily empowerment of ordinary citizens that needs to be enhanced. The Aam Aadmi Party has come in with a mandate to significantly increase transparency, accountability and citizens’ participation in governance. It has promised to seek answers from the people and foster real “Swaraj” by allowing the people to become a part of the planning, implementation and the monitoring process of governance. It will have to keep this promise.
The huge mandate has an implicit warning that expectations are high. The swing in mandate is also a warning to political parties that people know the power of their vote. Power is always limited, or should be, in a democracy. If there are no limits to power, democracy cannot exist.
Some see the verdict as the rejection of the personality cult being built around the prime minister. But doesn't the same danger hold for the newly elected chief minister of Delhi, Arvind Kejriwal?
It is true that “Abki baar Modi sarkar” and “Panch saal Kejriwal“ sound too much like the same ringtone. For an alternative party, with an “aam aadmi and aurat" approach, we hoped that there would have been greater emphasis on collective leadership. We expected many more pictures of other leaders on the AAP posters and banners as well. There should have been much bigger face recognition given to the many young volunteers and party workers in AAP. If the AAP quite rightly recognises personality cults and arrogance as a critical reason for the downfall of both the Congress and the BJP, it must change its current image. The image of a person-oriented party must be prevented through internal democracy and projection of collective leadership.The overwhelming mandate can make it even more susceptible to centralising and concentrating power both in the party and the government. The rhetoric, the imagery, and reality must come together in a real effort to dismantle concentrations of power, and allow ordinary people to hold power to account.
You have worked with Kejriwal in the past. But you disagreed with him at the time of the Anna movement. What do you think of him and his politics now?
Our disagreement was with the process and the nature of the solution. We had begun discussion within the National Campaign for People's Right to Information on an independent anti-corruption agency. Kejriwal was part of that group. The critical difference lay in the perception of power. The NCPRI was of the opinion that the law should empower the citizen, while dismantling the existing concentrations of power within the hierarchy of governance. Corruption was seen as a result of the arbitrary exercise of power. The creation of an all-powerful and unaccountable investigating agency could easily get corrupted. We have learned from the RTI movement that empowering ordinary citizens to demand answers from the highest authorities and hold them to account does bring about transformative change.
The new government in Delhi has come in with great expectations. It will have to try very hard to fulfil the promises it has made and institutionalise them. It will have to allow and encourage ordinary people to play the role of a constructive opposition. It will have to evolve and share its structure of functioning, show by precept and example that it works democratically within, and outside its party framework.
The AAP has taken some refreshing and important steps. It has put all financial donations on the website. It has involved young people and volunteers in significant numbers. It has attempted to break traditional vote banks of caste and community and used Delhi’s cosmopolitan nature to forge a new constituency. It has identified with the ordinary person and given India’s perpetual underdog a sense of hope and excitement.
However, the real political change will have to take place now, when the AAP is in power and shaping what it has promised – a truly participatory government. The AAP must use the significant talent it has attracted and the even more experienced pool of expertise and commitments in social sector, movements and organizations, if it has to multiply the advantage of political majorities by the wisdom of grassroots realities.
What is your view of the Aam Aadmi Party? What do you identify as its strengths and weaknesses?
The AAP is far too young to be easily classified and understood. It seems to have a mix of many streams, carefully attempting to stay clear of strong ideological positions and statements. However, politics is about competing ideologies. What seems like a strength in order to gain access to different sets of voters can also become a weakness in taking decisive steps in government. It is a welcome sign that it has treated its tremendous margin of victory with caution. The party has young people who have not yet been overtaken by the cynicism of electoral politics. However, the most difficult challenges lie ahead.
How will it grow as a party as it spreads in other states? The Lok Sabha elections seem to be a fairly dramatic failure, as it found itself overwhelmed by all kinds of elements taking control of the party. How will it deal with transparency and accountability of all its elected representatives and cadres across Delhi who will be its real face to the ordinary citizen?
How will it fulfil its many promises of water, electricity, health and education amongst others, while raising the resources needed to fulfill these promises? Finally, will it be able to make bold and significant moves to truly make government transparent and accountable to the people. Will it be a real bottom up government?
What are the real challenges that the Modi government needs to address in India and the Kejriwal government in Delhi?
Vulnerable people and communities in India are facing very testing times. One portion of India’s population has become extremely affluent, while huge numbers of poor people still struggle to get the most basic necessities. We now don’t even have the rhetoric of inclusive growth. The only mantra is “growth”, with no concern for its cause or distribution. The decision to leave the development of the poorest and most marginalized people to the market and the expected trickle-down is actually feeding a time bomb.
The recently promulgated ordinances on environment and natural resources will only further anger and alienate people who are already fighting with their backs to the wall. India cannot be driven by either a Northern or a Chinese model of growth. It has to evolve a development paradigm best suited to its geopolitical, socio-economic climate. It has to build an organic, homegrown, collectively decided, model of development that does not put extraordinary pressure on people and the environment that the central government is currently pursuing.
We are going through drastic budget cuts on social sector expenditures, and one hears that more cuts are likely in social sector spending in the next budget. The union government will be mistaken to assume that it got a mandate to do away with people’s rights and to carry on labelling essential social sector entitlements as doles.
Economic questions are difficult enough because of competing priorities. In addition, to allow social strife to build up as a possible diversion, allowing completely unjustified statements to be made by so called politico-religious leaders is a sign of manipulative politics taking root.
The Prime Minister, and the ruling alliance needs to step back and pay attention to real needs of ordinary people. Opening bank accounts is a potentially laudable step – provided that there is money in those accounts. The only new rural development initiative – the Sansad Adarsh Gram Yojana is too marginal to have anything beyond a symbolic effect.
The new Chief Minister of Delhi and his party should realise that he has been solidly supported by the poorer and more marginalised people of Delhi. If he can address the basic needs of the poor of Delhi, he can give wind to the hopes of millions of other people across the country.
Most importantly, the PM and CM must realise that the democratic framework that catapulted them to power can be used to make sure that their programmes and policies are indeed tailored to the needs of India. Principles of transparency, accountability and participation need to be applied. These are not just rhetorical terms, but the medium through which the energies of the people of India can be used for collective change.
What is the way forward for people's movements in the current political environment of the country? Has the space for social activism shrunk in the past one year?
The space for social activism may have been undermined because of the witch hunt of dissenters by the Home Ministry and other agencies of state. However, the need for social activism is even greater at a time when mainstream political parties seem to be turning away from social sector issues. People’s movements are actually stronger than ever before, and behind AAP‘s victory is the contribution of not just the anti-corruption movements, but also the years of committed work and hard earned credibility in the social sector.
People's movements have now reached a phase of maturity where they have carefully worked out the details of all aspects of each issue they take up. They are engaging with the state, the market, and with many powerful adversaries in society. They have now begun to engage with electoral political process. While some social activists make a transition into electoral politics, others must continue to deepen the space of the non-party political process. The dialectic between the two will make for a much healthier and more vibrant democracy, with real meaning for the people.