In June 2019, a few days before his death, playwright, actor, film director, writer, and activist Girish Karnad spoke to author and translator Arshia Sattar about his work, his life, and the concerns that had occupied him over almost sixty years as a public intellectual.
Bangalore International Centre’s BIC Talks podcast series, The River Has No Fear of Memories, distills those freewheeling conversations into a “short intellectual biography” to celebrate the life and work of one of India’s finest playwrights and thinkers.
Arshia Sattar – the co-host of the podcast, along with Anmol Tikoo – and author and playwright Vivek Shanbhag (who appears in episodes two and three) speak to Scroll.in about the series and memories of Girish Karnad.
At the time of publication, four episodes of the series had been released. Excerpts from the conversation:
Why is the podcast titled The River Has No Fear of Memories?
Arshia Sattar (AS): That’s the title of a song from Girish Karnad’s play Hayavadana. It was set to music by BV Karanth, one of Girish’s most important theatre collaborators. And it’s one of the most popular range geethe (theatre songs) in Kannada. Plus, we thought that since this was a podcast about memories – us remembering Girish and Girish looking back on his life – this would be an appropriate title.
The podcast has been described as a “short intellectual biography” of Girish Karnad – apart from introducing Girish’s works to new readers, what else does the podcast hope to achieve?
AS: I don’t think we set out to achieve anything in the material sense. The series is a way to share the thoughts of one of our major writers, intellectuals and activists, a chance to listen to how he thought about his own life and work and his achievements and failures. We were lucky enough to speak with him in that last week of his life – more people should have a chance to hear what he said.
You mentioned how Girish Karnad would often revise his play Anju Mallige even after fifty years of writing it. In fact, he was also open to others recommending edits. Why do you think he was obsessed with the play?
AS: I think because he knew that he had got it wrong and it bothered him. He really was a perfectionist in that regard. He worked on The Fire and the Rain for 30 years, he says, because what he had simply did not feel right to him. He was also not at all happy with Bali.
Why did it take Girish Karnad so long to write a contemporary play (for example, Maduve Album) set in India?
Vivek Shanbhag (VS): Girish Karnad dedicated his play Maduve Album to [Kannada playwright] GB Joshi. In the dedication he says that Joshi always told him that he would become a true playwright only when he wrote a contemporary play.
So when he wrote Anju Mallige, Girish tells Joshi that he has written a contemporary play and he’s finally a true playwright. At this point, Joshi disagrees and remarks that Anju Mallige is set in England and he needs to write something that is set in India. This is why he dedicated Maduve Album to Joshi – though unfortunately Joshi had already passed away by then.
Girish and I would have discussions about this, and I used to tell him that the reason he could not place his plays here is that he was away from Karnataka for a long time. He, of course, did not agree with me!
What counts is the contemporary sensibility, and not really the setting of the play. The moment you write a contemporary play and give a name to a character, you have to handle everything that comes with it – caste, class, and such things. I always challenged him on these grounds and we had a difference of opinion on this.
“If I had written as I think, then my template would have been Marathi. Then Konkani.” Yet, Girish Karnad wrote mostly in Kannada. In what ways do you think his profound understanding of languages and cultures resonated with his audience?
VS: Kannada has a wide and diverse range of folk and classical theatre forms, such as Yakshagana. The audience is used to such diversity and they appreciate it. In his autobiography, Girish writes about the influence of Yakshagana, Natya Sangeet, as well as Marathi theatre in his formative years.
In fact, no other playwright has used Kannada like him. Tughlaq, Hayavadana, Maduve Album, Taledanda – each play uses a distinct and different Kannada. In his films also, let’s say, Kaadu (1973) which is set in Mysuru, the characters speak in the Alanahalli dialect. Similarly, Ondanondu Kaladalli (1978) is set in North Karnataka and he used that language.
In an essay, Girish writes about his Kannada, and has detailed how he ended up using variations of the language. He also speaks about this in the podcast. What I mean to say is, he has always chosen the kind of Kannada which he felt was most appropriate to the setting of the play or the movie.
Language is very important in theatre, and you can’t mess it up. Girish had this range and I very much appreciated his use of different languages. You could not find any gaps in the way he used Kannada.
His mother tongue was Konkani but he wrote in Kannada. Kannada is the language of the streets in Karnataka and literature also came to him in this language. He could best convey the message of his writings in Kannada. When you use a learned language, you feel no inhibitions and you use the language as you think is right. Girish did that very well.
As a reader (and member of the audience), how do you think Girish Karnad transformed Kannada theatre?
VS: The new era of Kannada theatre began in the late 1960s and early 1970s. During this time, there were three prominent playwrights – Girish Karnad, Chandrashekhara Kambar, and P Lankesh – and and one director, BV Karanth.
These people together transformed Kannada theatre. Among them, Karnad has experimented widely, unlike anyone else. Tughlaq redefined the craft and its intensity. There’s no other play in Kannada that can match Tughlaq. Karnad provided a modern structure to Kannada plays. This is also the time when the Navya Movement [Kannada Modernist Movement] was at its peak – poetry and prose materialised in theatre through Karnad. This was an environment where the audience was receptive to these changes.
His plays had the kind of sophistication, modernity, and intellectual intensity that was needed to attract the young, educated, middle-class to theatres. Karanth directed Hayavadana, and Karnad and Karanth would go to do many films and plays together. In Hayavadana, Karanth and Karnad gave shape to the music and dance that were already around us, to find a place in modern theatre. It is still difficult to overcome the triumphs of this duo and Hayavadana was just the beginning!
Which of Girish Karnad’s roles (playwright, actor, film director, writer, activist) is his most lasting legacy?
AS: Depends who you are and how you see him. Girish was many things to many people – theatre people will hold his plays as his legacy, he’s also a big part of Kannada literature because he wrote several very important critical essays. Many people remember him for his role in Swami. A younger generation will remember Ek Tha Tiger.
Many activists are not all that interested in his plays, but they care very much that he came out and stood with them in so many protests. Girish’s legacy is vast and varied – that’s why this podcast series had to be made.
The series is also available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and other platforms.